Proving a Negative

Richard Carrier

I know the myth of "you can't prove a negative" circulates throughout the nontheist community, and it is good to dispel myths whenever we can. As it happens, there really isn't such a thing as a "purely" negative statement, because every negative entails a positive, and vice versa. Thus, "there are no crows in this box" entails "this box contains something other than crows" (in the sense that even "no things" is something, e.g. a vacuum). "Something" is here a set restricted only by excluding crows, such that for every set S there is a set Not-S, and vice versa, so every negative entails a positive and vice versa. And to test the negative proposition one merely has to look in the box: since crows being in the box (p) entails that we would see crows when we look in the box (q), if we find q false, we know that p is false. Thus, we have proved a negative. Of course, we could be mistaken about what we saw, or about what a crow is, or things could have changed after we looked, but within the limits of our knowing anything at all, and given a full understanding of what a proposition means and thus entails, we can easily prove a negative in such a case. This is not "proof" in the same sense as a mathematical proof, which establishes that something is inherent in the meaning of something else (and that therefore the conclusion is necessarily true), but it is proof in the scientific sense and in the sense used in law courts and in everyday life. So the example holds because when p entails q, it means that q is included in the very meaning of p. Whenever you assert p, you are also asserting q (and perhaps also r and s and t). In other words, q is nothing more than an element of p. Thus, all else being as we expect, "there are big green Martians in my bathtub" means if you look in your bathtub you will see big green Martians, so not seeing them means the negative of "there are big green Martians in my bathtub."Negative statements often make claims that are hard to prove because they make predictions about things we are in practice unable to observe in a finite time. For instance, "there are no big green Martians" means "there are no big green Martians in this or any universe," and unlike your bathtub, it is not possible to look in every corner of every universe, thus we cannot completely test this proposition--we can just look around within the limits of our ability and our desire to expend time and resources on looking, and prove that, where we have looked so far, and within the limits of our knowing anything at all, there are no big green Martians. In such a case we have proved a negative, just not the negative of the sweeping proposition in question.

The Method of the Best Bet
Logicians note that it is easier to prove that there are such beings than to prove there aren't simply because we only need to find one of them to accomplish our proof, and thus will not have to look everywhere--unless we are so unlucky that where the one Martian is just happens to be the last place we look. But in the final analysis, it is not being "negative" that makes a proposition difficult to prove, but the breadth of the assertion. For instance, "there is gravity on every planet in every universe" could be disproven by searching just one planet and finding no gravity, but if we kept finding gravity we could never decisively prove it true, any more than if we kept failing to find Martians in the universe would we be able to decisively prove that "there are no Martians in the universe." Thus, what people call the "you can't prove a negative" axiom is actually nothing more than the eternal problem of induction: since we can't test a proposition in every place and at every time, we can never be absolutely certain that the proposition remains true in all times and places. We can only infer it.In computers this sort of proof (of the positive or negative variety) results in an infinite loop (or quasi-infinite loop), and clever programmers can give software the tools to recognize such routines before executing them. Then, instead of executing them, they have them execute a simpler subroutine that equates to a "best guess." Not surprisingly, we all do the same thing: since we have neither the ability nor the desire to devote a dangerous proportion of our time and resources to testing every proposition of this kind, we adopt a simpler rule: given insufficient evidence, then no belief. This is the same thing as "given sufficient evidence, then belief," since insufficient evidence is the same thing as sufficient evidence for denial. This amounts to a "best guess" solution, where we recognize that a statement may be true, but have insufficient grounds to believe it. Or, in the case of propositions for which we have abundant but incomplete proof, we recognize that it may be false, but have insufficient grounds to disbelieve it. This is the basic principle behind all hypothetical thought, from the theories of science, to the "sun will come up tomorrow" variety of common sense. Given the set of all propositions of the first kind (where there is a lack of evidence despite some reasonable measure of checking), nearly all of them are false, so it is a safe bet to assume they are all false until proven otherwise. Conversely, given the set of all propositions of the second kind (where there is continuous evidence after some reasonable measure of checking), nearly all of them are true, so it is a safe bet to assume they are true until proven otherwise.

Unprovable Statements
Consider the negative case. When it comes time to decide what to believe, if we did not assume such "unprovables" were false, we would either have to choose which unprovables to believe by some totally arbitrary means, which amounts to a ridiculous "belief by whim" method, or else we have to assume that all such statements are true. Of course, we only have to believe true those unprovables that do not contradict other proven statements or that do not contradict each other, but even in the latter case we have no grounds for choosing which of two contradictory unprovables we will believe, and this is the same "belief by whim" dilemma. But even with these provisions, this policy would result in a great number of absurd beliefs (like "there are big green Martians in the universe"). Thus, when finally deciding what to believe, it is clear that the best policy is to assume that all unprovables are false, until such time as they are proved. In other words, it is reasonable to disbelieve a proposition when there is no evidence. Even if it is less certainly false than propositions which are actually contradicted by evidence (although even that does not amount to a complete certainty), it is still reasonable to regard them as false so long as we've done some checking, and don't ignore new evidence that we come across.A similar line of reasoning establishes the opposite in all positive cases. If we did not assume all such unprovables were true, we would either have to choose which unprovables to disbelieve by some totally arbitrary means, which again amounts to a ridiculous "belief by whim" method, or else we have to assume that all such statements are false. Of course, it would be plainly absurd to believe that all the statements for which we have some evidence are false. Although "absolute skeptics" actually claim to assume this, they put in place of truth a concept of assent which amounts to the same solution as I have discussed above: betting on the truth of a statement that we have many reasons to believe but can never be certain of. Thus, when finally deciding what to believe, it is clear that the best policy is to assume that all unprovables for which we have good evidence are true, until such time as they are disproved. In other words, it is reasonable to believe a proposition when there is good evidence. Even if it is less certainly true than propositions which are actually irrefutable, such as mathematical truths or "I am thinking, therefore I am," it is still reasonable to regard them as true so long as we've done some checking, and don't ignore new evidence that we come across. In all cases, we can perhaps move the bar up and down--changing the amount of "checking" that counts as reasonable and sufficient before resolving to believe--but this affects all our beliefs, as the bar cannot be set differently for different things without again engaging in "belief by whim" methods, and we will all find that there is such a thing as having the bar too low or too high, as one can find through the same reasoning as I have engaged in here.

The Unbelievability of Christian Theism
Christian Theism in its most basic sense entails observations that would necessarily be made by everyone everywhere and at all times, and thus it is as easily disproven as the alien in the bathtub. For instance, God is theoretically omnipresent, and granted us the ability to know him (to feel his loving presence, etc.), yet I have absolutely no sensation of any God or anything that would be entailed by a God, even though by definition he is within me and around me wherever I go. Likewise, God is theoretically the epitome of compassion, and also all-knowing and all-powerful and beyond all injury, yet I know that what demonstrates someone as compassionate is the alleviation of all suffering known to them and safely within their power to alleviate. All suffering in the world must be known and safely within the power of God to alleviate, yet it is still there, and since the Christian 'theory' entails the opposite observation, Christianity is false. Likewise, God theoretically designed the universe for a moral purpose, but the universe lacks moral features--animals thrive by survival of the fittest, not survival of the kindest, and the laws of physics are no respecter of persons, they treat the good man and the bad man equally. Moreover, the universe behaves like a mindless machine, and exhibits no intelligent action of its own accord, and there are no messages or features of a linguistic nature anywhere in its extra-human composition or behavior, such as we would expect if a thinking person had designed it and wanted to communicate with us.Christians attempt to preserve their proposed theory by moving it into the set of unprovables that lack all evidence. They do this arbitrarily, and for no other reason than to save the proposed theory, by creating impassable barriers to observation, just as requiring us to look in every corner of every universe creates an impassable barrier for one who is asked to decisively disprove the statement "there are big green Martians." For instance, the advanced theory holds that God alleviates suffering in heaven, which we conveniently cannot observe, and he has reasons for waiting and allowing suffering to persist on Earth, reasons which are also suitably unobservable to us, because God chooses not to explain them, just as he chooses, again for an unstated reason that is entirely inscrutable, to remain utterly invisible to all my senses, external and internal, despite being always around and inside me and otherwise capable of speaking to me plainly.The problem is not, as some theists think, that we can find no explanations to "rationalize" a god in this world of hurt. I can imagine numerous gods who would be morally justified and even admirable, and others who would be neither evil nor good, and still others who are evil, but none of these would be the Christian god. The fact is that Christianity is the proposal of a theory, and like all theories, it entails predictions--but these predictions are not being born out. So Christians invent excuses to save the theory--excuses which have absolutely no basis in any evidence or inference, except the sole fact that they rescue the theory. This is Ptolemy's hypercycles all over again: the motions of the planets and sun refused to fit the theory that they all revolve around the Earth, so Ptolemy invented numerous complex patterns of motion that had no particular reason to happen other than the fact that they rescue the theory of geocentricity. It is simply far wiser to conclude that instead of this monstrously complex and bizarre architecture of groundless saving suppositions, it makes far more sense, and uses far fewer suppositions, to simply admit that the universe doesn't revolve around the Earth after all. As for all the other theories--all the other possible gods--there is no more evidence for them than for this incredibly complex deity with a dozen strange and mysterious reasons that only too conveniently explain why we never observe him or his actions in any clear way.Of course, even these groundless "solutions" to the Christian 'theory' do not really save the theory, because, to maintain it, at some point you must abandon belief in God's omnipotence--since at every turn, God is forced to do something (to remain hidden and to wait before alleviating suffering, etc.) by some unknown feature of reality, and this entails that some feature of reality is more powerful than God. And this feature cannot merely be God's moral nature, since if that were his only limitation, there would then be no barrier to his speaking to me or acting immediately to alleviate suffering or designing the universe to have overtly moral or linguistic features, since any truly moral nature would compel, not prevent, such behavior. Thus, the Christian hypothesis is either incoherent or unprovable, and in the one case it is necessarily false, while in the other it lacks justification, so we have no reason to believe it, any more than we have a reason to believe that there is a big green Martian on some planet in some corner of some universe. This is what it means to "prove a negative."

Copyright 1999. Copying is freely permitted, provided credit is given to the author, and no material herein may be sold for profit.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/index.shtml

Note how this Christian refuses to deal with the logic of the responses and chooses a best answer that says "Atheists do not have evidence" when clearly they do:

Juan Aye
Resolved Question
Show me another "

Atheists:Do you have any credible, tangible, verifiable evidence God doesn't exist?

Back at ya!

Rikki Rikki

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker

The atheists don't have any evidence!

If I get 3 more thumbs down, I'll just delete my question! haha

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5 out of 5

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Atheists are just showing their ignorance.

This question about "Atheists:Do you have… " was originally asked on Yahoo! Answers United States

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M (atheist) M (atheist)

Yes, the absence of evidence is in fact evidence of absence (not proof of course, but evidence until other evidence comes about). Until evidence otherwise is brought about, the burden of proof cannot fall on those not making the claim.

But as for God the Biblical one, heck the Bible is proof he doesn't exist since it not only contradicts reality, but the God in it contradicts himself.

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Ryan Ryan

The bible -_-

And the problem of evil

The problem of free will and omniscience

The argument of abysmal design

The argument of Bertrand Russel that points out how you theists are required to give evidence not atheists.

Ultimate Boeing 747 gambit (love mr dawkins)

The omnipotence paradox ie. Can God create a rock bigger than he can possibly lift?

The concept of a infinite regress

The fact that morality cannot come from your God since we all as humans disagree with slavery even though the bible assumes slavery would forever be seen as morally correct.

Agnostic Atheism Wager - RationalWiki

The fact that a omnipotent and omniscient being would not by any means need to make a world such as this and would not require worship among so many other things.

The fact that there are over 5000 different Gods.

Done. Conclusion = God doesn't exist. Although some form of deity may do.

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Sarah Louise Sarah Louise

Exactly the same amount of evidence that the world was not created by a giant carrot who commands us all never to eat vegetables - there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that it was. Now if I was claiming the carrot does exist and did create the world then the burden of proof would be on me.

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Member Member

You have it *** about face - I do not need any proof of anything - the burden of proof is on those making the claim as it is in court - if you think God exists it is up to you to prove it.

The mistake you just made in logic is a common one for theists who have no training in logic.

Your mistake and others are dealt with on my site (2nd link).

You cannot prove a negative.

Please take logic 101 before asking more questions.

Source(s):

http://www.godisimaginary.com

http://templarseries.fortunecity.com/Yah…

http://templarseries.fortunecity.com/Yah…

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Rebecca Rebecca

Seriously I am getting tired of this question. The burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim. You can not prove a negative. If I claimed that there was an invisible miniature dinosaur living under my bed would you admit to his existance because you can not prove he doesn't exist? Or would you think the burden of proof is on me since I claim it's existance.... Yeah, thought so. The burden of proof is on you to claim God's existance since you claim it is so.

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lhvinny lhvinny

A Top Contributor is someone who is knowledgeable in a particular category.

Which god? Depending on which god you're talking about, yes, I can provide credible, tangible, verifiable evidence it does not exist as described. Others I cannot.

Until you clarify, I cannot complete an answer to your question.

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Hellbound Ty™:Trollophobic Hellbound Ty™:Trollophobic

Christians:Do you have any credible, tangible, verifiable evidence Zeus/Mars/Aphrodite/Kratos don't exist?

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26-year old Deist

2 hours ago

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Logic / Reason / Evidence Logic / Reason / Evidence

Do you have any credible, tangible, verifiable evidence pixies don't exist either? You can't prove a negative. If you can prove pixies don't exist.

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Roger T Roger T

For the umpteenth time, no I don't. You can't prove a negative. If that is what you need to prove that your God exists, then have at it. Don't you find it sad that that is all you really have?

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atheist

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Teresa Villanueva Teresa Villanueva

we know that "god" exists we just dont believe he should be worshiped over. we dont think we should pray to him because hes specialy

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myself

1 hour ago

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Immune to Indoctrination Immune to Indoctrination

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

2 hours ago

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Ricardo Ricardo

I have credible, tangible, verifiable evidence that no fundie has yet to produce any evidence of a god.

1 hour ago

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The Sky is Over? The Sky is Over?

It can't happen Atheism=There is no proof of God,therefore he must not exist

How can you disprove something that doesn't exist?

2 hours ago

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World's Strongest Millionaire World's Strongest Millionaire

Yes, but I will only provide it to you when you can provide me equally legitimate evidence that Shiva doesn't exist.

2 hours ago

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Barbara - Go Niners! Barbara - Go Niners!

Person: Do you have any credible, tangible, verifiable evidence that God does exist? Back at ya!

2 hours ago

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Michael K Michael K

Theist: Do you have any credible, tangible, verifiable evidence Odin doesn't exist? Though I smell Poe.

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Purportedly Magic Jew Purportedly Magic Jew

A Top Contributor is someone who is knowledgeable in a particular category.

The lack of verifiable evidence for a god is evidence verifiable to anyone.

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Curtis B Curtis B

Genesis is wrong, and it's supposed to be the infallible word of an omnipotent, omniscient deity.

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William William

Holy Crap! Burden of proof! Burden of proof!

2 hours ago

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manuel manuel

No. Things that don't exist tend to not leave tangible evidence of their not existing.

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But I smell a Poe.

2 hours ago

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Lisa Lisa

Oh. My. Spaghetti Monster.

***shudders***

2 hours ago

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Tao Man Tao Man

No requirement, no evidence. More than enough for me.

2 hours ago

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maulporphy maulporp...

Pick up a newspaper, or watch some TV news. There's your proof.

"The horror! The horror!"

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Dr House Dr House

The burden of proof is not on me. There is no way of knowing.

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Death of Baal Death of Baal

the burden of proof is on theists... but the only "burden" Christians know about is the white man's burden.

2 hours ago

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Desie<3 Desie<3

do you have tangible evidence that he does exsist ...and the bible doesnt count

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The Lord of Misrule The Lord of Misrule

Stacks of it.

2 hours ago

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Thomasina Thomasin...

Don't need it love.

2 hours ago

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Cyber Bully Cyber Bully

yes, one time i tryed praying

then it didn't work.

that is all

2 hours ago

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Gis Gis

we don't make a claim so have no claim to defend, why is this so difficult for you to understand?

2 hours ago

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